HelloOctopus:  Hello, Michael?

GalleryMWC:    hello Ben

HelloOctopus:  heya, that was my other screen name.

HelloOctopus:  I forgot which one I told you.

GalleryMWC:    that’s funny... I get a lot of people Iming me from the mulletsgalore.com interview I did... most of them don’t like me

HelloOctopus:  ah, I thought maybe it was something like that.

HelloOctopus:  I should re-read that one to ascertain why they might not like you.

GalleryMWC:    So should we turn this into an interview?

HelloOctopus:  sure, if now's a good time for you. could be okay for me.

GalleryMWC:    yeah it is good for me...

HelloOctopus:  okay, then.

HelloOctopus:  hit me, cap'n!

GalleryMWC:    So maybe you should tell me when and how you started working on the computer.

HelloOctopus:  oh wow. I had a TI-99/4a when I was a kid. but also I used to draw "machines" when I was even younger than that; it was some of the first stuff I used to draw--reel-to-reel computers. anyway, when I was like 12 or so is when I first started messing on the old TI.

GalleryMWC:    I don't even know what kind of computer that is... what were you doing on there?

HelloOctopus:  I think once I learned to program a little bit, I was mainly making terrible games. I had one huge choose-your-own-adventure type game I was working on. And some Dungeons and Dragons rip-off. Bad stuff. (It's a Texas Instruments. They sold them in Toys R Us and Bill Cosby was the product spokesperson.)

GalleryMWC:    How long ago was this?

HelloOctopus:  I think it must have been early 1980s. Or maybe mid-1980s. I  don't know the specific date. I'm guessing 1984.

HelloOctopus:  Or maybe 1983-1985.

HelloOctopus:  something like that.

GalleryMWC:    is there some kind of cohesive narrative which leads you from where you were then with computers to where you are now with computers? Or did your work with and view of computers change radically at a certain point/s?

HelloOctopus:  that's a good question--all good questions so far. I guess the cohesive narrative would just be the story of my life up until this point. I work on a computer now, so that changes how I engage with the machine, I think. computers are more powerful and can do more now, which changes how I work with them and point of view. but I dunno that there's been any radical change, just gradual shifts. (your question is much better than my answer.)

GalleryMWC:    Okay, well, do you do any work design, art, or otherwise outside of the computer?

HelloOctopus:  I do.

GalleryMWC:    what is the difference between the two? How does making a piece of art (or whatever you want to call it) on the computer change the way that you make it?

HelloOctopus:  (oh, another good one!) Well, there's a super interesting way that it changes how people interact with it later--if it's still "trapped" in the computer, then its audience is limited to those with access to a computer--but that's not your question...

HelloOctopus:  I think making art on the computer is slightly less satisfying because it's more abstract, removed from the physical. But in other ways more satisfying because you're using this tool that extends what you're capable of doing; so, on computer, I'm able to make a "thing" that looks like what that "thing" would look like if it was made by a professional maker of that kind of "thing." If that makes sense.

GalleryMWC:    people do the same thing with sculpture... using real mass produced objects... is that what you mean?

HelloOctopus:  hmmm. I’m not sure. I think it's not exactly what I mean.

HelloOctopus:  using objects is one thing--and that's true in both computer-made and hand-made stuff....

HelloOctopus:  ...but maybe I’m talking more about making something that looks like a real album cover for example. like, on computer I can make  an album cover that looks 100% like a real album cover put together by a major record label. that's a dumb example, but less dumb than just saying "thing."

GalleryMWC:    right... I think people also do this with sculpture. So when you do this are you kind of making parodies or satires of the real things or what is the motive?

HelloOctopus:  (I think it's another good question, but I’m going to stop saying that after every question.) sometimes satires or parodies. sometimes just seeing if I can make the thing with no other motive than the goal of creating a realistic imitation.

GalleryMWC:    like a false reality? like the Mao brand graphic?

HelloOctopus:  maybe. maybe it's a false reality. but it's informed by real reality. maybe it's a parody of the real reality of Mao and how he turned his face into an icon like a brand. I haven't thought about that one in terms of it being a "false reality," but I like the idea.

GalleryMWC:    Okay... is superbad the base of all artistic computer work that you do or is superbad an artistic computer work?

HelloOctopus:  the second one, I guess. or neither. it's not quite ALL the artistic computer work I do, although for about 5 years, it pretty much was. superbad is an artistic computer work, itself, but it also is kind of like 200 works lumped together to form one big work. so....hopefully individual pages stand alone as works, but also the whole thing is a work.

GalleryMWC:    so you make other computer art works that are completely separate from superbad?

HelloOctopus:  sure.

GalleryMWC:    can these things be found on the internet or what happens with them?

HelloOctopus:  There's one thing I did for a museum in Korea. I think that's still up online. And there's a bunch of stuff that was online and isn't anymore because no one paid the ISP. Plus the odd page here and there in geocities or whatever. Oh, and there's some stuff that's just on my hard drive. (weird--I switched into sentence case. I wonder why that is.)

GalleryMWC:    So is this other stuff as dense as superbad or are they sort of the types of things - just single pages - which we might find on superbad, or is it neither of these things?

HelloOctopus:  None of it is as dense as superbad. there are some single pages. The thing for Total Museum was (hopefully) dense but had to be much smaller because I really only had a week or two to put it together.

GalleryMWC:    Okay... All these people are talking after this years whitney biennial: "this is the first time that the whitney has allowed a new form of art since 1970 something when they declared video to be art" What do you think of this? Do you think that computer art is really a new form of art? Can there really be new forms of art? Is it not that art ideas are just being brought onto the internet?

GalleryMWC:    maybe it is just more obviously a new form of art? like every year they are actually letting in new kinds of art but with this - which is made in an overtly different manner - it is easier to say "this is new" ?

HelloOctopus:  to me it doesn't seem like it's a huge leap to do art that's on the web. and using a new medium for the creation of art doesn't really seem like a big deal to me. there's stuff about the medium that makes the art done for it very different. but it seems to me like the stuff I’m doing on the web is a pretty natural way to use the medium. and to an extent, I just started doing superbad and people started calling it art and I said, "okay, if calling it that is what makes it make sense."

HelloOctopus:  did I answer the question? seems like the answer to this could be discussed for days and days. (your font changed. are you cutting and pasting now?)

HelloOctopus:  (okay, now I’ll answer the 2nd question) is it a new form of art? umm, I guess so, just because you couldn't do art in that form prior to 1994 because that form didn't exist.

GalleryMWC:    yeah sorry I am cutting and pasting... I am just coming up with the questions in word as we go...

HelloOctopus:  it's totally fine. cut and paste away!

At this point I tried to send another question and when The "send button was not allowing me the pleasure of clicking it I noticed that ben had signed off. A few moments later the phone rang, andy answered it and called me over to it. A man said "hello... this is Ben Benjamin." Ben then told me that his computer had crashed and that for one reason or another his AOL Instant Messenger was not able to sign back on. I asked if he would like to continue at a later time, he said "Oh! Wait! I think it might be... yes it seems to be... It is working!" He told me that he had another hour and a half of free time but that at 8 he would have to go. I said that was fine and just before hanging up told him that I would "see (him) in there."

HelloOctopus:  okay. back.

GalleryMWC:    it was good to talk to you on the phone.

HelloOctopus:  yeah. neat!

GalleryMWC:    okay... back to the issue of density of content on superbad. I think I have read you (or someone else) say that this is in some way a mirror of the density of the internet. So are there - like with the internet - great distinctions between one page and the next? Or is each page constructed with a similar idea/motive? Or are there a couple of motives here which we see repeating? ...Okay... what are your motives...?

HelloOctopus:  wow, I don't think I said that about the density of the internet, but I like that someone's reading metaphors into it. hmmm, some pages on superbad relate to the next page, but many of them don't. (just like the internet?) and yeah, there are a lot of different motives for the pages on superbad for sure....

HelloOctopus:  motives include: making fun of something that's annoying, playing math games with what's possible in javascript, learning how to do something, breaking some rule about interface design that some expert has proclaimed (in order to test its validity), having fun making stuff, getting demons out of my head, .... probably there are others -- what are some others that I’m missing here?

GalleryMWC:    telling stories

HelloOctopus:  yes, good one.

HelloOctopus:  also showing something that I think is funny

GalleryMWC:    you lived in Japan for a while huh?

HelloOctopus:  yes.

HelloOctopus:  how'd you know?

GalleryMWC:    I think I read it in the rhizome interview...

HelloOctopus:  oh, that's right. I think I was in Japan when I did that interview. I think? I forget now.

GalleryMWC:    it seems like people associate Japan with GOOD DESIGN and so maybe that is why it was mentioned but what is that place like? how did living there effect or IMPROVE your design?

GalleryMWC:    and what do you think about my theory about Japan and design?

HelloOctopus:  oh, in a lot of ways, I think the association of Japan with good design is fairly apt. wow, that's a big question--what was the place like? I mean, it's an island and there are a lot of people (120 million? I want a fact-checker on this) living in a relatively small space (70% of the land is mountains and whatnot that aren't even inhabited) so spaces and even appliances NEED to be well-designed for people to be able to live there....

GalleryMWC:    whereas here we have so much space we can afford to have crappy design.

HelloOctopus:  Exactly! and answering the last part of the previous question: living there definitely improved my design sense. I just saw solutions that I would never have seen here. and the restrictions on design are so totally different there. there's not a huge market for poorly-made products there (unlike say America). and things can be cute without alienating men who buy them.

HelloOctopus:  or women (who actually do more of the purchasing of products there).

GalleryMWC:    It is all very different with the internet though where the space is unlimited.

HelloOctopus:  hmmm. space, yes, sort of. bandwidth, no.

GalleryMWC:    right but did seeing economical physical design effect the way you designed for virtual space?

HelloOctopus:  that's a deep question. gimme a second for this. (also phone call, be right back.)

HelloOctopus:  (sorry about that.)

HelloOctopus:  I think so.

GalleryMWC:    no problem

GalleryMWC:    do you know how it effected your design?

HelloOctopus:  I had to find solutions to new problems, which, that informed my design solutions to old problems. if that makes sense.

GalleryMWC:    yeah that does make sense. could you give me an example though?

HelloOctopus:  it made me more interested in cute. but I was already interested in cute. other than that and the above answer, I dunno if I can articulate the effects or think of a good example.

GalleryMWC:    Okay

HelloOctopus:  I did a bunch of superbad pages while I was in Japan. unfortunately, when I was switching ISPs, most of those pages were lost.,

GalleryMWC:    were they radically different from what we see on superbad now?

HelloOctopus:  hmm, I don't think so. seems to me like all the stuff on there right now is fairly diverse, so it would be hard to make stuff radically different from all of that.

GalleryMWC:    right

GalleryMWC:    cut and now pasted:

GalleryMWC:    Maybe the most distinctive thing about superbad is that there is no interface. I think actually that there are some (I’m thinking of Garfield in particular) but a visitor is kind of forced to find them and then once they click something the interface is gone again.

GalleryMWC:    You can keep pressing the back button on your browser and eventually think that you have seen everything as you slowly watch all of the little textual links turning colors. What is the benefit (functional or otherwise) of this type of non-interface interface? Is it just the mimicking of the nature of the internet type of thing?

GalleryMWC:    also as far as I know there is no way to find out what it is or who made it.

HelloOctopus:  oh, yeah, I think you've described it right--not no interface but almost no interface. maybe semi-interface. the function is more of a work-around than a statement about the internet. I had all these disparate pages--how should I connect them? well, it doesn't matter if anyone's able to find them again, so I’ll just sort of randomly string them together. then when that got too annoying, even for me, I added what you referred to as the Garfield page, which I think of as 'the trunk' (because sometimes it's Garfield, sometimes it's the trunk of a pinto hatchback...which really doesn't have a trunk, but whatever).

HelloOctopus:  yeah, there's no easy way to find out what it is or who made it. not within the site anyway.

GalleryMWC:    and so what does that mean... you weren't looking for credit but you have somehow found it?

HelloOctopus:  maybe, yeah. it's more about the process of making it than credit, I think.

HelloOctopus:  also the anonymity is because who made it is so much less interesting than the thing itself.

GalleryMWC:    But people are so crazy about the personality behind the art these days. It is almost the most important aspect of some people's work. Obviously you aren't into it.

GalleryMWC:    ?

HelloOctopus:  I like making things. that's what I’m into. that's more fun than being a personality that people can go crazy about, I think. not that I have a ton of experience with the being a personality thing.

GalleryMWC:    Still you must have done something to promote the site...

GalleryMWC:    ?

HelloOctopus:  I told friends about it. and family. then it mostly spread by word of mouth. I don't say no to many interviews. but I never go out of my way to promote it, really. self-promotion is not a strong point for me, nor do I get a lot of pleasure from it.

GalleryMWC:    It is an emotionally draining thing to do - self-promotion.

HelloOctopus:  maybe so.

HelloOctopus:  do you do it yourself?

GalleryMWC:    I did do it very well for a while.

HelloOctopus:  and why was it was draining?

GalleryMWC:    it is fun but ultimately destructive because (maybe just for me) it promotes the presence of big ups and then big downs...

HelloOctopus:  interesting. so did you stop doing it?

GalleryMWC:    Yes. It just gets ridiculous and sort of shallow even if you are faking it....

HelloOctopus:  yeah, so I’ve never really gotten too into it. I guess I’ve been super lucky that I haven't had to.

GalleryMWC:    yeah... it's influenced by so much desire... those types of things seem to end up bad

GalleryMWC:    But

GalleryMWC:    I heard that you raise ducks?

HelloOctopus:  you did?

GalleryMWC:    yeah I did...

HelloOctopus:  where did you hear that?

GalleryMWC:    I read that on a website which was promoting a book which included the work of 100 designers. The bio said that you have raised the largest duck in northern California.

GalleryMWC:    Is this true?

HelloOctopus:  oh, that. well, I think it was translated incorrectly.

GalleryMWC:    what was it supposed to say?

HelloOctopus:  I never raised ducks. I’ve raised the occasional goose. my geese have won awards. mostly just 4-H stuff from when I was a kid. but the largest duck in California thing; that's a misunderstanding.

GalleryMWC:    so do you still raise geese? How does your rearing of geese effect your work on superbad?

HelloOctopus:  I don't raise geese anymore. it'd be tough to do that in san Francisco. I think having experiences like that with animals as a kid totally influences how people do whatever work they do.

GalleryMWC:    did you grow up in a pretty rural place?

HelloOctopus:  (with geese, they can be so mean. you have to be alert and attentive.) I did. fairly rural. sort of suburbs/farmland area in Indiana.

HelloOctopus:  where the suburbs meet the farm. literally.

GalleryMWC:    What was that like?

HelloOctopus:  hmm. good and bad. being able to walk to a creek and play in a creek is mostly good. having trees and grass to play on is good. the suburban conformity thing that happens is pretty bad, though. having animals around, mostly good. having growing things, good. etc etc.

GalleryMWC:    how do you think you were effected psychologically by having those two extremes right in front of you - the natural farmland and the developed suburbs

GalleryMWC:    ?

HelloOctopus:  I don't know. I’ll go with something about standing in 2 worlds. how does that sound?

GalleryMWC:    that’s okay.

GalleryMWC:    well is there anything that you want to say about the medium of the computer and working on it?

HelloOctopus:  well, who's your audience?

GalleryMWC:    maybe you should do one for the art history books and then one for the mulletsgalore fans.

HelloOctopus:  okay. here goes...

HelloOctopus:  dear art history book readers, focus on the medium insofar as it informs the content of the message but not so much as to ignore the message itself.

HelloOctopus:  dear mulletgallore fans,

HelloOctopus:  please don't harass me or Michael on AOLIM, thanks!

GalleryMWC:    oh and I think I should also ask what it is about working with animals as a kid that is so influential to whatever you choose to do?

HelloOctopus:  well, less about working with animals than not being detached from that part of life, I think. my "cow" isn't just this packaged abstract meat product, like it seems like it is for a lot of folks.

GalleryMWC:    right... so it kind of ties what you see in the city and in technology somehow back to nature?

GalleryMWC:    or you at least know what nature is while you are in the city?

HelloOctopus:  yes, nature...design...nature doesn't mess up much. nature = good design. something like that.

HelloOctopus:  yes, I think someone who's totally immersed in the computer kind of loses touch with something real. I guess I’m totally stating the obvious here. so, never mind.

GalleryMWC:    yeah but some people grow up in the cities, more and more kids are gonna grow up on the internet instead of playing in creeks and running away from skunks.

GalleryMWC:    its obvious now but maybe not in a few years

HelloOctopus:  cities have a lot to offer too. I don't wanna come down on cities. but for me, growing up more rural has been good because I can feel comfortable in cities or in the suburbs (sort of...maybe not) or in rural places.

GalleryMWC:    and do you think that this does or does not work the other way around?

HelloOctopus:  hmmm, it's always struck me as a more difficult transition to make, just based on friends of mine who grew up in cities, but really it probably just totally depends on the person.

HelloOctopus:  (oh, also, speaking very generally, cities have a wider variety of people representing a wider variety of cultures, and I think that's a good thing to grow up around.)

GalleryMWC:    that is true.

HelloOctopus:  which part?

GalleryMWC:    about all sorts of different people in cities being a good thing to grow up around

HelloOctopus:  yeah. did you grow up in a city?>

GalleryMWC:    no I grew up in a rural one roaded town in Pennsylvania... then I moved to a small city (providence) when I was 13

HelloOctopus:  yeah, and do you feel like you could live in either type of place?

GalleryMWC:    definitely I do.. I also feel that people who live in cities but came from the country are generally very interesting people with often strange eccentricities and a lot of spirit/wildness (obviously this is a biased opinion).

HelloOctopus:  right. I think a lot of friends of mine who are now in cities but grew up in the country have a great perspective on things.

GalleryMWC:    I think you learn to be a bit of an explorer in the country... digging around and imagining  lots of strange scenarios out in the woods

HelloOctopus:  yeah, I agree.

GalleryMWC:    and then that carries on into your experience of a city...

HelloOctopus:  finding worms and old bottles and stuff.

GalleryMWC:    old broken plates?

HelloOctopus:  yep!

GalleryMWC:    abandoned wells?

HelloOctopus:  hahaha, exactly. exploring abandoned wells. experimenting with flaming sticks. seeing what happens when you roll around in a prickerbush.

GalleryMWC:    building houses for the gnomes...

GalleryMWC:    and boats

HelloOctopus:  yup, boats. treeforts. building worlds to explore when you're playing "planet of the apes and cats."

GalleryMWC:    And now we are talking through the internet

HelloOctopus:  our amazing world.

GalleryMWC:    truly truly so

HelloOctopus:  what's your favorite interview you've done so far?

GalleryMWC:    well which ones have you read?

HelloOctopus:  I thought I’d read almost all of them--or skimmed most of them anyway. but then there was all that mullet stuff that I hadn't seen before and also the second one from the top that I hadn't seen.

GalleryMWC:    I like this one because I we have come to just be talking it is no longer an interview really... that is nice. I liked the one with Michael Rees.. and the mullets one I thought was surprisingly good

HelloOctopus:  it's too bad the mullets one isn't up anymore. I don't really remember it.

GalleryMWC:    it is still up

HelloOctopus:  oh really? all I found was a notice about it being taken down. is it up but hidden?

GalleryMWC:    do you mean the interview I did or the site mulletsgalore?

HelloOctopus:  the interview.

GalleryMWC:    there is one interview I took down with a mullets fan because he had threatened me but the interview with J666 the mulletsgalore guy is still up

GalleryMWC:    I will send it to you...

HelloOctopus:  oh, okay. cool, thanks.

HelloOctopus:  how do you decide who to interview?

GalleryMWC:    I want to interview people who are actively doing something which sits nicely in the current state of affairs in this country/culture...

GalleryMWC:    But really anyone who is doing something specific and dedicatedly

HelloOctopus:  that's neat. I was going to ask about "sits nicely" but then you kind of answered it.

GalleryMWC:    and anyone who has acquired my attention with some sort of fame

HelloOctopus:  so all the interviewees are sort of famous?

GalleryMWC:    no

HelloOctopus:  I see. some sort of fame. just means they've gotten your attention?

GalleryMWC:    you, mullets, allmylifeforsale I think that is it...

GalleryMWC:    well in these cases they have just been pointed out to me or I have read about them...

HelloOctopus:  the cam girl I think also qualifies as having a degree of fame. everything is a degree of fame I guess.

GalleryMWC:    yeah definitely Meenk as well

GalleryMWC:    a degree...

HelloOctopus:  are any of them friends of yours?

HelloOctopus:  like prior to the interview?

GalleryMWC:    yeah... Shane, Justin, Andrew Siegfried, Michael Rees,

HelloOctopus:  ok. that's what I was wondering about the consultant, specifically.

GalleryMWC:    Will the consultant

GalleryMWC:    yeah

HelloOctopus:  funny that I remember what they did but not their names. which I guess makes sense because you're interviewing them about what they do.

GalleryMWC:    yeah and it has their screen names rather than their names

HelloOctopus:  right.

GalleryMWC:    so what are you going to do now that it is 8?

HelloOctopus:  oh, my girlfriend had a meeting until 8. I was thinking I’d maybe make dinner for us both. but now I’m thinking that maybe she ate at her meeting.

GalleryMWC:    well, is there anything else that we need to talk about in this interview?

HelloOctopus:  hmm, I don't think so. but you'd probably know better than I would.

GalleryMWC:    Well what are the topics that most urgently press on your mind?

HelloOctopus:  right now....the things pressing on my mind relate to the city of los angeles, the television format of the sitcom, and Gettysburg PA, and what I’m going to make for dinner.

GalleryMWC:    are you watching a sitcom?

HelloOctopus:  no. but as a general project, I’m studying the genre.

GalleryMWC:    have you seen "that's my bush"?

HelloOctopus:  no. unfortunately, I don't have cable. is it good?

HelloOctopus:  (getting cable is also pressing on my mind.)

GalleryMWC:    it is really bad. but it is kind of mocking the genre maybe.,,

HelloOctopus:  that's sort of what I’ve heard about it. exactly that, actually. I’m curious. I’d like to see it.

HelloOctopus:  it'd be a better trick to mock the genre while also making a good show, it seems.

GalleryMWC:    it certainly would but it is also a good trick to do a bad sitcom about the president of the united states

HelloOctopus:  oh, that's true!

HelloOctopus:  yeah, I totally want to see it.

GalleryMWC:    anyway so what about los angeles?

HelloOctopus:  oh, in a couple months, I’m moving to los angeles. so I’m also studying los angeles, thinking about it a lot--in order to make the move easier, and also just because it's interesting.

GalleryMWC:    cool... well if you don’t have any closing statements I would like to ask if I can steal some graphics from superbad to include with the interview.

HelloOctopus:  sure. everyone does. what do you think you'll steal?

GalleryMWC:    any suggestions? maybe a portion of something that is cut up...

GalleryMWC:    I might do some remixing of your design

HelloOctopus:  yeah, or maybe stuff we talked about. all the magazines tend to like this one: http://superbad.com/1/superbad/sbad.html

HelloOctopus:  yeah, do some remixing!

GalleryMWC:    thank you for the interview.

HelloOctopus:  thank you. it was fun.

GalleryMWC:    good luck, have fun, take cae,

GalleryMWC:    care

HelloOctopus:  bye now. you too. I’m going to cook some spaghetti now, I think.